I am by no means the first to suggest this, with as varied of folks as Aristotle and Carnegie suggesting effectively the same thing.
If you're going to talk, know why you're talking.
To talk to people who already agree with you, the purpose is perhaps bonding, perhaps
excitement, and perhaps helping to strengthen conviction. If you're going to do this kind of talking, by all means demonize the opposition. Much/most of the emotional force of this kind of argument comes from in-group/loyalty moral emotion as characterized by Jon Haidt. However, recognize that any argument that has a substantial component of in-group/loyalty is not going to play real well at convincing anyone of anything.
To talk to people who disagree with you, the purposes can be different.
Understanding others' perspectives is an option. In this case...questions are good. a particular concern needs to be taken for not being over-aggressive. If you want to understand someone's point of view, the general approach is to ask nice questions, and allow them to develop their position. DON'T contradict them. The best line here, if you disagree is in the direction of: "Perhaps I'm a little slow, but I don't quite follow how X. Does it always work that way?" Good at making people feel important. Probably good at shifting positions slightly.
Talking to others with the purpose of convincing them of something is again different. If someone has made up their mind, and you wish to lead them to a different place, the proper response is usually to change your purpose. Opinions (on non-science matters) tend to be social-proof opinions, and group identity markers. Changing someone's opinion is in general a matter of attempting to get them to switch a section of their identity. The best thing you can do in this case is social-proof your way to win. Demonstrate that you are first in the "good" group, though it's not out of the question to allow yourself on the fringes of the "good" group. Then, you need to demonstrate (generally not via argument) that you as a person are the kind of person whose opinions should be respected/deferred to. Then, you can shift a person. Until then, no.
If your purpose is to argue...feel free, but know that most people find the argument significantly annoying because you (the arguer) really don't understand that the purpose of opinions is primarily social, not truthical.
The virtue of excellence
Wednesday, August 19, 2009
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Yes, Andrew, I skipped a bunch of purposes. On purpose.
"by all means demonize the opposition"
Is this meant sarcastically?
Rob,
Actually, no. If your purpose in talking is to energize the base...it is among the best tactics. It's just that if you are doing something else, the whole demonization thing is counterproductive.
Being as I don't belong to a base...I don't have much use for that paricular tactic.
My point is...if you know what you're trying to do...pick appropriate tactics. If you see tactics...recognize their purpose and effectiveness. Just don't remain stuck in the silly backwater that thinks communication is mostly or largely about the logical content...or that it should be about that.
I realize its an effective tactic.
If you need to rally a fighting squad it may be morally required.
But its one that seems to bring out the worst in people. It seems like something a enlightened person should avoid and scorn in polite society not encourage.
"The best thing you can do in this case is social-proof your way to win"
If I wanted to be a con man or a politicians (but I repeat myself) this would seem like sound advice. I think it nicely explains how vacuous public political dialog is. The point is clearly not to convince based on anything so silly as the truth. We all suffer greatly that this is the main way to win.
"Just don't remain stuck in the silly backwater that thinks communication is mostly or largely about the logical content...or that it should be about that."
I think there is great value in trying to understand what the other person purpose in the conversations is. That the purpose should be mutual.
But I think a lot of communication should be about the truth...that is one of my main purposes. I am fine with trying to learn to recognize when its not welcome. I am happy to explore other purposes in communication more fully. In particular those modes which try and build intimacy and connection.
But so much damage is done by people avoiding the truth as a purpose in discussion that I won't cede it as a moral goal. Also while I may learn not to engage them and simply be quite, I think I should look down on the public offering of opinions on non-taste based topics where truth is not a big part of the goal.
I think its dangerous that people do this for group inclusion purposes, for self validation purposes etc.
Groups exploit the social opinion tact to encourage people to have more and more extreme opinions to distance them from non-group members. And this seems to have on the whole largely negative consequences in the modern world. (religion and politics being two sources) So again this seem like something to caution people against not to encourage.
Final though, I do see how a focus on truth in conversation can be distancing.. as our various conversations in these threads has seemed to me.
One at a time:
IMO, polite society is something of a Victorian myth. At the point that the proletariat got access to the means of production of opinion, it was gone, effectively for good.
In group loyalty is a deep human emotional need, far far higher than abstract truth on the importance scale actually used by people. So while it might be nice to wish that we could primarily pursue truth, this is so far from true as to be farcical.
The problem is that in polite company, one always (read historical lit) has an enemy group that is used to create cohesion in the company...and it seems impossible to remove that.
2:
The idea that truth should be the way to win is a noble lie advanced by Plato against the Sophists nearly 2500 years ago. Helluva lie. Doesn't work, never worked. Almost irrelevant to social interaction.
Great approach for inventors to try to learn the truth. Nice to have scientists to help inventors with more careful analysis of external physical world.
It fundamentally violates the purpose of communication, though, as developed on the Savannah a million years ago. (Just so story) While initial communication as per monkeys/birds/squirrels was nice as a means of warning for predators, informing of resources, the Evolutionarily Stable Environment pushed that to the side. Communication became primarily a further buildup in the social arms race, and it has remained primarily that ever since, except for sporadically in tiny pockets of conversation.
On other news, on my 3rd read, I'm saying something a great deal stronger than what you're responding to:
Communication about truth is a relatively narrow, and relatively low priority use of language. Many of us (myself included) would fare a lot better in the world if we recognized this as human nature / unalterable fact rather than wishing that it were not so.
Rob,
To illustrate the miscommunication:
I said: "Just don't remain stuck in the silly backwater that thinks communication is mostly or largely about the logical content...or that it should be about that."
You said: "But I think a lot of communication should be about the truth."
This goes way way back to fundamentals. According to me, the good is prior to the true.
You are asserting here goodness, prior to looking at reality. I can accept that...just as I can accept pacifists (or Jainists) pursuing extreme non-violence and turn-the-other-cheekiness. However, the two are in the same category...beautiful (wish I could be there) visions of the good with great internal consistency, and not a whole lot of usefulness in reality when up against human nature.
Re energizing the base...Argument by xkcd
http://xkcd.com/588/
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